Defense Continues Cross-Examination of Witness Samuel Kargbo

9:30 (10:00 with 30 minutes delay in video and audio): Court is in session. Judge reminds witness of his oath to tell the truth. Defense continues cross-examination of witness Samuel Kargbo.

Def: Good morning Mr. Kargbo

Wit: Good morning

Def: I’d like to revisit where we broke off yesterday so we can contionue.  Are you able to help us with when in March 1998 it occured that diamonds where taken from you and you were detained for 72 hours?

Wit: I can’t state the exact date but it was around middle of March.

Def: So how long had you been in Koidu before this incident happened?

Wot: Within three weeks time in March. Towards the end of March.

Def: So you’d been in Buedu for three weeks and the satelite phone had run out of credit right?

Wit: Yes, correct

Def: When you first told the prosecutors about this, all you said was that diamonds were taken from you and JPK. Were diamonds taken from anybody else?

Wit: Thats all that i saw

Def: Just you and JPK?

Wit: Yes

Def: Were there any children with you?

Wit: Yes all of us were there

Def” How many children?

Wit: I can’t recall the number

Def: Your vehicle was a jeep right?

Wit: Nissan Patrol Cobra

Def: And by the time you got to Buedu, you swapped to a bule jeep?

Wit: We did that before we even went to Kono

Def: How many children together with you, JPK, Makuta, any other adults in the vehicle?

Wit: About 5-6 bodyguards

Def: What sort of Toyota is this?

Wit: It was a Rangerover?

Def: What sort, Freelander, Discovery?

Wit: I dont know the difference between Freelander and Discovery

Def” How many children plus the ten adults?

Wit: I cant recall

Def: All these people in this one vehicle?

Wit: Yes

Def: How many people on the roof?

Wit: The roof or the road? We were many, i cant recall the number of people

Def: What was the age range of these children in the vehicle?

Wit: I dont know the ages

Def: Estimate?

Wit: I cant

Def: Is any of this true that there were ten adults and an unspecified number of children?

Wit: Yes

Def: Was it more than 4 children?

Wit: Yes

Def: More than 6

Wit: yes

Def: Perhaps as many as ten children

Wit: More than ten

Def: All in the one vehicle?

Wit: yes

Def: More than 15

Wit” Not up to fifteen, between ten and fifteen

Def: Were any of these children teenagers or younger?

Wit: Some were teenagers and some were younger

Def: What happened to them when JPK and Makuta were put under house arrest?

WIT: All of us were arrested. I together with the children were in the same cell

Def: So what happeded to the children after your release?

Wit: They gave them a place to stay

Def: Why didnt you tell the intervieweres in your first interview that you had been flogged?

Wit: I said that over and over again

Def: Are you saying you told them in that first inyterview?

Wit: Yes

Def: Did you tell the prosecutors in your first interview that you had been flogged?

Wit: Yes

Def: Was this interview read back to you the next day?

Wit: Yes

Def: Did you notice that they had missed out this information?

Wit: Well they were the ones who read and what they read is what i responded to

Def: Did you tell them that they had ommitted that information?

Wit: Well i did not see it, they just read it to me. So if i had seen it myself may be i’ll have taken note of that

Def: Did you tell them that Rambo told Sam Bockarie that yourself and JPK were carrying huge quantity of diamonds. Did you tell them that?

Wir: Yes

Def: You said several people were flogged. Who was flogged together with you in Buedu?

Wit: That was me, the security and JPK’s family

Def: Who in JPK’s family were flogged?

Wit: His children, his relatives, just those of us who were there

Def: Were all the children flogged?

Wit: All of us

DEf: Which other relatives of his were flogged?

Wit: His cousins

DEf: How many?

Wit: I cant recall the number but i can remember his cousin Ramsy

Def: How many members of his security were flogged?

Wit: I can recall Salieu, David, Twenty…

Def: Yes, anybody else?

Wit: I cant recall the names of the others

Def: You said some of the people went unconscious as a result of the floggings right? Did you tell the prosecution that members of JPK’s family were flogged?

Wit: yes

Def: And members of his security?

Wit: Yes

Def: Can you remember when you told the prosecution about those flogings. was it about November last year?

Wit: Yes about that time

Def: was it also same time you told them about people going unconscious?

Wit: Yes

Def: How many of the childrene were flogged and went unconscious and what were their age limits?

Wit: I cannot give any rough estimate

Def: Is that because non of these happened?

Wit: they were beaten but i cant tell their ages

Def: But there is notthing in these notes that says the children were flogged. Was it an error on the part of the prosecution or it did not happen?

Wit: It happened. I have said what exactly i saw and wont lie about it.

Def: Can you help us with whose error  it is that some of the things you have said here do not appear in the notes?

Wit: That is not my mistake

Def: How is it that you only mentioned that SBUs flogged you about three weeks ago?

Wit: I have spoken to them about that since the start of my interview

Def: Will you agree that this is the first time that we have a written record of this?

Wit: I dont understand the question.

Def: I am suggesing that this is the first time we see any written record of SBUs flogging you.

Wit: I have said so from the start of my statement.

Def: Are you saying that the prosecution have failed to make a record of you telling them this?

Wit: Well, they prepared the document as you said.

Def: There is nothing in these paragraps that says anything about JPK’s security and relatives were flogged. Did you tell them this three weeks ago?

Wit: Yes

DEf: And they have not managed to write that down?

Pros; I think to be fair with the witness, paragraph 30 should be read to the witness

Def: I am coming to that paragraph. So the simple point is that everytime in the past you have told them about these people being flogged, they have just not written it down?

Pros; I object again because you cannot skip paragraph 30 and ask this question.

Def: No reference whatsoever to these in paragraph 30

Judge: But there is a reference that the witness and others were flogged. That could cover all these people.

Def: But it is a quote from Bockarie

Judge: I will allow the question. Prosecution has the right to re-examine.

Def: Thank you. The fact is that others like Gullit were crossing Sierra Leone with diamonds right?

Wit: They didnt cross Sierra Leone. It all happened in Sierra Leone

Def: Bockarie told you that you and other people found with diamonds would be treated this way because they were government property right?

Wit: Yes

Def: And you knew that Gullit was one of those right?

Wit: yes

Def: You were put in a cell and JPK and his wife under house arrest?

Wit: Yes

Def: And Bockarie was accusing you of wanting to runaway with them?

Wit: yes

Def: And the diamonds you had were government property right?

Wit: yes, part of them

‘DEf: And you said some were goivernment property, remember that?

Wit: Yes

Def: The diamond you had should have been sent to Freetown from Kono right?

Wit: Part of those that were government’s

Def: So you told them that some of the diamonds were yours and some government property, but the prosecution did not write that?

Wit: yes

Def: Can you tell who interviewed you three weeks ago?

Wit: the lawyers sitting on my right hand side

Def: Do you agree that what is written in that sentence makes it look as though all the diamonsds were due to be sent to Freetown as government property?

Wit: No, i disagree

Def: Did you tell Bockarie that not all the diamonds are government property?

Wit: Yes

Def: Did you tell the prosecutor that you pointed this out to Bockarie?

Wit: No. I told them that i owned everything.

Def: So you told the prosecution that the diamonds were all yours?

Wit: yes

Def: How could they possibly have written down that you had 240 pieces of diamonds that had not been sent to Freetown?

Wit: I told them that.

Def: Did you have a tailor sow them into your waist bag for you?

Wit: yes

DEf: So that someone would not know they were there except you told them?

Wit: yes

DEf: So they were hidden because they were government property?

Wit: No

Def: You were angry because your plans to leave Sierra leone with the diamonds had been foiled by Bockarie and others?

Wit: No

Def: Do you know a man called Ziff

Wit: yes

Def: Whho is Ziff?

Wit: he was a whitemane i knew since the NPRC days but dont know his nationality

Def: Is he Isreali?

Wit: I dont know his nationality

Def: Did he own a hotel in Freetown?

Wit: I dont know about that

Def: You knew that the NPRC dealt with Zif?

Wit: yes

Def: And he was an arms dealer right?

Wit: I dont know. I used to see him hanging out with my boses.

Def: Did he ever deal with the AFRC?

Wit: I never saw him around us. I did not see him around the AFRC.

Def: On JPK’s diamonds, word reached Mike Lamin that JPK had diamonds. Lamin went and fired shots over the heads of JPK’s security. JPK came out to see what was happening. When Lamin told JPK that they knew he had diamonds, he (JPK) voluntarily handed over his briefcase. Do you agree?

Wit: No, i disagree.

DEf: On Koidu, did JPK have a radio at anytime after the intervention when he was fleeing across Sierra Leone?

Wit: What kind of radio, you mean communications radio or receiver for news?

Def: Communications

Wit: We had a handset but it was not functioning because the Nigeriaons had interfered with the transmitter.

Def: You said that JPK had a handset that was not functioning. From what time did he have the handset in his possession?

Wit: It was with the controller, Banja Marrah and i also had mine. But as we got to Masiaka, it was not functioning because the Nigerians tampered with the receivcer.

Def: And what happened to the set?

Wit: They took everything from us after our arrests.

Def: Did the radios work at anytime when you were moving with JPK?

Wit: It was only when i picked them up. By the time we got to Makeni, it was no longer working.

Def: You told us when shown a documnet that you remembered JPK in his village talking to the BBC that he was up the hills?

Wit: I said he was up the hills

Def: When he spoke on the BBC, you didnt hear him talk of Operation Pay Yourself?

Wit: i was present when he spoke to the BBC and he did not talk about Operation Pay Yourself.

Def: On Buedu, you talked about two trips to Foya and Dawa area right?

Wit: yes

Def: The first trip took place around March -April of 1998 right?

Wit: Yes

DEf: CO Lion, Eddy Kanneh were on the trip right?

Wit: It was not Eddy Kanneh. This Eddy was an RUF, very close to Issa.

Def: was Issa on that trip?

Wit: yes

Def: And you were all in one vehicle?

Wit: Yes

Def; What kind of vehicle?

Wit: Land Cruiser

Def: You said the vehicle was full right?

Wit: Yes

Def: Were there people on top of the vehicle?

Wit: I dont know. I know that there were bodyguards in and out of the vehicle.

Def: You said you went to this Liberian female pofficer, did you eat at her bar?

Wit: We went to the bar, hand drinks there and later went to her house and ate there.

Def: On your return, you said you came across another Land Cruiser, parked on the side of the road and loaded with ammunition right?

Wit: yes

Def: And in it, were Bockarie and Jungle and some other SSS men?

Wit: yes

Def: Roughly, how many people were in that Land Cruiser?

Wit: The SSS were not even more than five plus Jungle, Bockarie and the driver

Def: That makes it eight people plus the ammunition?

Wit: yes

Def: And it turned out that this ammunition came from Liberia and that Bockarie told you that Taylor was going to send vehicles for you to be picked up?

Wit: No. You have missed part of the statement. He was telling my boss that taylor had sent vehicles to collect. I was present but he was not speaking directly to me.

Def: And the ammunition was coming from Taylor to you?

Wit: yes

Def: Had you by this time received any other materials from taylor after the intervention?

Wit: That was the first one that i witnessed,

Def: How was the ammunition put into your vehicle?

Wit: You have missed the point. They did not put it into my vehicle. I did not have a vehicle infact.

Def: But you said there were enough sardine tins, enough materials to fill the store room right?

Wit: yes

Def: Whereabout was this store room in Buedu?

Wit: In Bockarie’s house

Def: Can you gives us an idea of this store room using this store room?

Wit: This court room is too big. It will not be easy for me to describe it here now. If i can see the photo of the house, i can tell you the size of the store.

Def: How did you fit all the ammunition into the Land Cruiser that had other people in it?

Wit: I dont know how they did it.

Def: The Landcruiser cannot take eight people and all the ammunition in it.

Wit: You are missing the point, the land cruiser had a truck attached to it

Def: Who went the second time to Dawa?

Wit: We brought the first one in the vehicle. In case of the second one, we went with Bockarie to collecet them.

DEf: So when went the second time to Dawa?

Wit: Bockarie. I was fortunate to be there.

Def: Any body else?

Wit: Yes, his bodyguards together with some other RUF commanders. I cant recall their names now.

Def: Was it Issa?

Wit: No

Def: Lion?

Wit: No

Def: Mike Lamin?

Wit: Yes

Def: Anybody else?

Wit: Yes, i believe Collins went. I cant remember the others.

Def: And what vehicle did you use the second time?

Wit: Land cruiser. Not even one.

Def: How many vehicles went?

Wit: About 2-3 vehicles

Def: You sure about that?

Wit: yes, if my memory serves me well.

Def: How man people in your vehickes?

Wit: I cant recall the number. Most times when we took some patrols., we were packed in the vehicle.

DEf: And you went to Dawa and Foya?

Wit: yes

Def: And you parked in the same area?

Wit: Not the same area. It was betweent Dawa and Foya but not the same place

Def: You saw the Liberian female commander again?

Wit: Yes

 Def: And you drank and ate again?

Wit: We drank but did not eat

Def: And you met jungle again?

Wit: Yes

DEf: Was this in the same place were you met him two weeks earlier?

Wit: It was not the exact place but it was still within the same area.

Judge: My Munyard, we have bee aletrted that its time for our mid-morning break. Is that a convinient point to stop?

Def: Your your honour.

Judge: Mr. Witness we’ll have our usual break and we’ll resume with your testimony in 30 minutes right?

Wit: Thank you my lord.